DUST Search - New Players and E-Bushido

S Park Finner wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

dday3six wrote:

Players are never going to get better unless they face others doing their best, and continually seeking more challenging opponents. Taking it easy on others, regardless of gear is doing them a disservice by teaching them bad habits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs

As the video says, there is a difference between Difficult and Punishing. New players don't have the skills and tools they need when they're being thrown into the public matches at 400 WP. It's not "good or bad habits" it's the accessibility and ease of execution - there's no barrier between an Assault - Frontline and a Prototype Assault with a Duvolle Assault Rifle. The only way the new player can win that fight is by sheer luck, there's no tools that he can just pick up to make a sizable defense that is going to win against a higher Tier.

And that's not even taking into account skills affecting things like Damage, Weapon Dispersion/Recoil, Reload time, etc.

I hardly think that not shooting at a new player until they fire first teaches them bad habits - what the hell is he going to learn from that that could even remotely be sized as bad? Not walking out of the red line?

Edit: In the video, this quote says it best: "Don't ignore difficult curve. Just because a game is difficult doesn't mean that it's difficulty can just fluctuate wildly all over the place, have huge spikes or be unreasonably difficult up front."

Later: "You don't want to set something before them that causes them to walk away because they hit a challenge which is too tough too early."

Another important video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

There's evidence that overcoming a series of small challenges of increasing difficulty is the most effective way to build both skill and confidence. Increasingly difficult sports leagues as children get older is an institutionalized example. DUST 514 doesn't have the player base -- and may lack the instrumentation -- to create that kind of levelling. Going easy on less skilled players, however, might help.

Another possibility is deliberately inviting new players -- even in pick-up games -- into a squad to help them along and protect them a bit. It has lots of benefits, won't slow you down too much and lets you beat the snot out of people while feeling you are helping out the new guys. It supports your recruiting as well and isn't limited to just elite players -- anyone can help out a less experienced player.


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Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2438	Posted - 2013.08.10 22:00:00 - [1] - Quote E-Bushido/E-Honor isn't something that belongs in Dust 514/Eve Online considering how ruthless it is. However.... HOWEVER.... After playing a Domination match in which the ENTIRE enemy team (I was a sniper toward the end of the match so I could see this in the information panel on the bottom left) was running starter fits, I am hearby stating that until the Instant Battle Academy stops kicking people into the frying pan at 400 WP, I will -not- knowingly fire on the following suits: Assault - Frontline Assault - Medic Assault - Sniper Assault - Anti-Armor The only exemption to this rule is that I will only knowingly fire on one of these suits in the event that you fire first. I encourage those veterans who are interested to do the same.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2438	Posted - 2013.08.10 23:03:00 - [2] - Quote RKKR wrote: I use those and militia gear alot lately (unless I'm supporting my squad with proto-hives/resp) so I'm not sure if they are all new players that just got out of academy. ...and if they were...saving them wouldn't help CCP understand their call-out for "how to better the experience of new players"-thing...or they could always come to the official AFK servers to train offcourse. Don't have to rely on CCP to give new players a half decent experience and giving them a fighting chance is a good start for the community to welcome them until they have something more feasible. I can only imagine what's going to happen when AFK camping is fixed.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2445	Posted - 2013.08.11 08:56:00 - [3] - Quote 8213 wrote: So, if a starter fit walks up to me, I have to let them kill me? I'm gonna start using starter fits if this takes effect :) You didn't read the post if you didn't see the bit about firing on them only if they fire first. Aria Gomes wrote: Some people run the Militia gear to save up ISK for their special suits. I know I don't wanna use my Assault all the time. I'll use my militia gear, not only does it not cost ISK, you'be learned from playing the game from awhile so you can play just as good w/ a Militia as you would with a Adv. or Proto. Running, Ducking and Covering are you're friends. Use them! Besides you can't tell a noob from am experienced player when they're shooting at you. Any noobs on should try to trick their enemy. ** if I have to run around a CRU so I don't get killed, I'll do it then go in the oyher direction and shoot them. Sometimes, people just ssy and walk off giving you a chance to shoot them in thr back and killing them. Militia gear and Starter fits are two completely different things. Again, read the post - if they're firing at you then it's free game. Himiko Kuronaga wrote:** The battlefield is no place for duels. You are teaching them bad habits and investing into a weaker generation of players. I find it intensely interesting the only people saying this are from PC Capable corporations.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2447	Posted - 2013.08.11 11:33:00 - [4] - Quote dday3six wrote: Players are never going to get better unless they face others doing their best, and continually seeking more challenging opponents. Taking it easy on others, regardless of gear is doing them a disservice by teaching them bad habits. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs As the video says, there is a difference between Difficult and Punishing. New players don't have the skills and tools they need when they're being thrown into the public matches at 400 WP. It's not "good or bad habits" it's the accessibility and ease of execution - there's no barrier between an Assault - Frontline and a Prototype Assault with a Duvolle Assault Rifle. The only way the new player can win that fight is by sheer luck, there's no tools that he can just pick up to make a sizable defense that is going to win against a higher Tier. And that's not even taking into account skills affecting things like Damage, Weapon Dispersion/Recoil, Reload time, etc. I hardly think that not shooting at a new player until they fire first teaches them bad habits - what the hell is he going to learn from that that could even remotely be sized as bad? Not walking out of the red line?
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2447	Posted - 2013.08.11 11:35:00 - [5] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: (I was a sniper toward the end of the match so I could see this in the information panel on the bottom left) How about instead of being a ***** you lead from the front as an example of how to win a match, so many domination's get to 1/4 shield dmg on the mcc and vets like you lead the charge on sitting back in the redline and sniping instead of getting into the fray and dropping uplinks where the nublets can spawn and fight on. Lmfao - you obviously have never played a match with me and seen my usual fittings. But what's even worse is despite making an assumption (a terrible one at that) you didn't even read the post to see that we won because the entire ENEMY team was new players. There was no "sitting back in the redline and sniping" it was sniping from the front line of the objective. Don't post unless you're actually going to read the thread.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2447	Posted - 2013.08.11 12:00:00 - [6] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: If you run around with a sniper rifle i'd probably sneer in your direction and forget you exist a few seconds later, only good sniper is one on comms doing anti AV overwatch for my tank or ADS. Entirely opinionated. A sniper who's worth his salt can remove threats before they're a threat to begin with and communicate with his team beyond just a "anti-AV overwatch" scenario. A good sniper puts himself in a position that is not illuminating to an enemy presence (on top of a roof, as an example) where he can dispatch the higher threat in the area and inform his team of enemy locations/fluctuations in tactic. A good sniper can tell his team, with as few words as possible, what the enemy is about to do so that they can make a pre-emptive strike or counter attack. A BAD sniper is a sniper who throws himself to the nearest rooftop, gives away his position with missed shots and has no communication what-so-ever. At that point he's just another guy with a gun and no discipline behind it. Again - you assume you know a player that you've never played with. I train my corp-mates on how to be an effective sniper because I learned from the Rangers.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2447	Posted - 2013.08.11 12:15:00 - [7] - Quote S Park Finner wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: dday3six wrote: Players are never going to get better unless they face others doing their best, and continually seeking more challenging opponents. Taking it easy on others, regardless of gear is doing them a disservice by teaching them bad habits. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs As the video says, there is a difference between Difficult and Punishing. New players don't have the skills and tools they need when they're being thrown into the public matches at 400 WP. It's not "good or bad habits" it's the accessibility and ease of execution - there's no barrier between an Assault - Frontline and a Prototype Assault with a Duvolle Assault Rifle. The only way the new player can win that fight is by sheer luck, there's no tools that he can just pick up to make a sizable defense that is going to win against a higher Tier. And that's not even taking into account skills affecting things like Damage, Weapon Dispersion/Recoil, Reload time, etc. I hardly think that not shooting at a new player until they fire first teaches them bad habits - what the hell is he going to learn from that that could even remotely be sized as bad? Not walking out of the red line? Edit: In the video, this quote says it best: "Don't ignore difficult curve. Just because a game is difficult doesn't mean that it's difficulty can just fluctuate wildly all over the place, have huge spikes or be unreasonably difficult up front." Later: "You don't want to set something before them that causes them to walk away because they hit a challenge which is too tough too early." Another important video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w There's evidence that overcoming a series of small challenges of increasing difficulty is the most effective way to build both skill and confidence. Increasingly difficult sports leagues as children get older is an institutionalized example. DUST 514 doesn't have the player base -- and may lack the instrumentation -- to create that kind of levelling. Going easy on less skilled players, however, might help. Another possibility is deliberately inviting new players -- even in pick-up games -- into a squad to help them along and protect them a bit. It has lots of benefits, won't slow you down too much and lets you beat the snot out of people while feeling you are helping out the new guys. It supports your recruiting as well and isn't limited to just elite players -- anyone can help out a less experienced player. I'd be totally down for it if there was a system in which I could label myself as a "mentor" and help guide them through the process like how **** poor of a decision Armor Tanking is in it's current iteration. Unfortunately the only way to do this, apart from knowing the poor sod is to put yourself out there on the forums and sort of hope that new players come around to actually viewing the thing after getting absolutely decimated in pub stomps.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2447	Posted - 2013.08.11 12:23:00 - [8] - Quote Jade Hasegawa wrote: I would do that but anyone and eve1 fores at me anyways so I fire back, but as a rule I tend to look for adv or proto guys anyways as I like the challenge (one of these days I will kill 13ear) but if someone in miltia gets in my way, they go down, not like its costing them ISK Not talking about Militia - Militia is free game as far as I'm concerned but I'm not firing first on Starter fits. Unsporting and it's just killing the PCU in this game.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2452	Posted - 2013.08.11 22:26:00 - [9] - Quote dday3six wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: dday3six wrote: Players are never going to get better unless they face others doing their best, and continually seeking more challenging opponents. Taking it easy on others, regardless of gear is doing them a disservice by teaching them bad habits. I hardly think that not shooting at a new player until they fire first teaches them bad habits - what the hell is he going to learn from that that could even remotely be sized as bad? Not walking out of the red line? I cut out the EC crap, cause that's all it is pretentious crap. If you want to help new players squad with and inform them. Not shooting at them until first fired upon, creates disconnect as to why. They could have been running down the middle of the road in the complete open, and if no one ever fired on them they might start to think it was a good idea. I'd rather that than them thinking that if they want to be competitive they have to AFK the MCC or stay in the Red line and snipe the entire match.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2453	Posted - 2013.08.11 22:41:00 - [10] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: What's wrong with starter fits? 100% profit. I wouldn't consider what we have to be tiers, since more powerful suits, modules, and weapons cost more. You just need to find the sweet-spot that causes you to profit. No point in getting 300,000 ISK in a battle if you lost 275,000 worth of gear. Starter Fits are usually a sure sign of a new player who just left the Instant Battle Academy after one game due to the 400 WP requirement for leaving. Segregation of new players is usually bad but considering that there's no tools for new players to remain competitive against veterans it's a major issue. They need to be segregated so that they can gain enough SP to at least have some kind of survivability option over other players - be it defensive skills/modules or offensive skills/modules. It doesn't make any sense that to get a standard weapon/dropsuit you have to invest hundreds of thousands of SP when there are so many necessary skills and modules to make a difference. A new player has effectively 50% less EHP, less fitting capabilities due to resources (electronics/engineering skills) and less damage application when compared to someone with say, 15,000,000 SP. There's no such thing as "bad habits" when there is such an extreme gap between new players and veterans. My corporation exercises restraint when doing skirmish matches in pub/faction warfare to leaving the enemy with at least one objective because honestly we don't learn a damn thing when camping the red line. It's just not fun sitting on the red line and making easy kills when you could work on tactics for pre-emptive strikes against the enemy's movement. Suffice to say, the only thing killing a new player does as a veteran is just makes you feel like a bad ass when you don't deserve the feeling - anyone can kill another player when they have more offensive/defensive capabilities. Now, if you can red line an entire team of Proto-geared players, it's a completely different story, but we're not discussing that.